A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
Vice President Vance announced Thursday the creation of a new assistant attorney general position to focus on fraud that he and President Trump would supervise. The administration says it has frozen child care funding for all states and other aid for low-income families in five Democratic-led states because of what it claims is public benefits fraud. NPR's Jennifer Ludden is here to explain some of the issues around benefits fraud, real or alleged. So, Jennifer, let's start. Do we know how common fraud is overall in safety net programs?
JENNIFER LUDDEN, BYLINE: Well, I spoke with three people who researched this and have helped oversee benefits programs. And basically, we don't really know because it's likely not all crimes are caught. But they say there's been some fraud as long as programs have existed, and the same goes for allegations of it, warranted or not. Now, most fraud is by providers or outside scammers, not as much by the people who get the money, and this is despite inspectors general, state audits, state prosecutors. But experts also see systemic problems in how our safety net is structured that they say may raise this risk of fraud.
MARTÍNEZ: So tell us some examples.
LUDDEN: Well, for one thing, Matt Weidinger at the conservative American Enterprise Institute points out it's common for states to administer a program with federal money. And he thinks there just isn't the incentive to be super vigilant.
MATT WEIDINGER: This is the same reason why you don't wash rental cars, right? It really belongs to somebody else. And so the real concern about misspending or the care and feeding of these dollars belongs elsewhere.
LUDDEN: Another possible reason - Don Moynihan, a political scientist at the University of Michigan, says a lot of benefits flow through private contractors for services they say they've provided. And he says this reflects an American desire for smaller government and having the private sector step in.
DON MOYNIHAN: Once you make that choice, then that also invites more opportunities for bad apples to engage in fraud. And so government has to then do more to monitor that behavior to try to prevent it.
MARTÍNEZ: Now, fraud is being blamed by the Trump administration and MAGA-connected influencers on Democrats. So how does that figure into how experts see it?
LUDDEN: Right. And they're also singling out immigrants, especially in Ohio and Minnesota, where a case there's been going on for years and 60 people have already been convicted. But, you know, experts say fraud happens in every state, blue and red. And the governors of Minnesota and Ohio, a Democrat and Republican, say it's not limited to any ethnic group. Now, public policy expert Moynihan says by targeting only a handful of Democratic states in this case, the administration is politicizing fraud to cut people off benefits. And he says they've not shown evidence of ongoing fraud in those places. Still, the administration says it's freezing that money until they provide data going back years. Here's Nick Gwyn - he's with the left-leaning Center on Budget and Policy Priorities - on that.
NICK GWYN: They've asked for huge amounts of information, confidential information that relates to where families live, etc., that would be really difficult for states to come up with and that they shouldn't have to come up with under the requirements of this program.
LUDDEN: And yesterday, the five targeted Democratic-led states filed suit in this case, saying it was unlawful to block that money.
MARTÍNEZ: I'm wondering how all this messaging from the White House could play out.
LUDDEN: You know, there is some worry that this drumbeat could undermine public trust - that if people just think fraud is endemic everywhere, they won't support safety net programs or want to fund them. And experts say there's a risk then in distorting this, but also, real fraud must be tackled to keep that public trust.
MARTÍNEZ: All right. That's NPR's Jennifer Ludden. Jennifer, thanks.
LUDDEN: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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