MICHEL MARTIN, HOST:
A federal judge in San Francisco has stopped the Trump administration indefinitely from firing federal employees during the shutdown. U.S. District Judge Susan Illston said the unions that brought the lawsuits would likely prove that the government's mass firings - known as reductions in force, or RIFs - were unlawful. But the head of the American Federation of Government Employees, the largest union that brought the suit, also issued a statement saying it's time for the shutdown to end and called for Congress to pass the bill that Republicans have been demanding to reopen the government. The president of AFGE is Everett Kelley, and he's with us now. Good morning, Mr. Kelley. Thanks for joining us.
EVERETT KELLEY: Thank you for having me.
MARTIN: So I know you're not a lawyer, but let me ask about the decision that the judge made pausing these RIF notices that went out over the course of the shutdown. The judge said she would hold another hearing to determine whether some of the RIFs announced since the shutdown were, in fact, related to the lapse in appropriations. How do you read that? Do you think some layoffs could still be on the table?
KELLEY: Well, you know, at this time, you know, what I know is that the judge has blocked the administration from firing federal employees during the shutdown. And that's what I know right now. I don't know what to expect moving forward, but I do have faith in the fact that, you know, the actions are illegal and that justice is on our side.
MARTIN: Your union represents more than 800,000 federal workers and D.C. government employees. So how are you advising members who received these layoff notices?
KELLEY: Well, I mean, telling them, you know, to pay attention, you know, and they should be getting directions from their management. You know, we're not in the business to give them directions. We are fighting for their cause. But the management should give them direction, and we're telling them to adhere to whatever their managers are telling them.
MARTIN: So let me go to the statement that you issued earlier this week. It was a very strong statement where you called on both sides to pass what's called a clean continuing resolution - pay everybody and then work together on a bipartisan basis to address the policy issues that the Democrats are citing as the reason why they haven't voted for this bill. But the Democrats point out that this - that the - this continuing resolution passed months ago, and the Republicans have refused to negotiate. So what makes you think that they will now?
KELLEY: Well, this is the thing. You know, I'm saying that both entities should sit down and work through their differences. You know, I do think that, you know, the issue that is being raised is vitally important. However, they should not take this on federal employees. Federal employees should not bear the brunt of what's happening in America.
MARTIN: So Republicans point to your demand to end the shutdown - saying that they should pass the clean continuing resolution - to say that you now agree with them, that you're on their side on this issue. Is that correct?
KELLEY: Well, I'm on the same side that I've always been on. I've never wavered from my position. If you notice, even the Democrats have stated that from the very beginning that's been my position, and it has been.
MARTIN: Which is?
KELLEY: But - which is that the government should now be open. Federal employees should not be punished and played as pawns in a political game. And when I see federal employees, you know, that want to work, that have a desire to work, yet they're standing in food lines, you know, trying to get food for their families, it tells me that it's time to do something. And so, you know, I think that the letter that I issued has brought some - it brought something to the - to this situation, because right now I think that there is a bipartisan initiative to make sure that all federal employees are paid, whether furloughed or not. Now, that didn't happen. There was no conversation before I issued my statement.
MARTIN: But have any members of the Democratic leadership called you to talk about your statement?
KELLEY: Not since I issued the statement. No.
MARTIN: Not since you issued the statement. OK.
KELLEY: No.
MARTIN: So the - I just wanted to know - we have about a minute left. We heard Joel Rose's piece where he's talking about air traffic controllers. Is there anything else that you want to note about some of the other workers that you represent? As we mentioned, you represent the largest union of federal workers.
KELLEY: Yeah. Well, you know, the thing is, I have been talking with these members, you know, periodically as I travel. You know, I've did polling, surveys, you know, and these employees are saying they're just tired of being used as pawns, and they want to go to work so they can provide for their family. That's what they're saying. They want to make sure that they have food. They want to make sure that they have child care, you know, and make sure that they have gas in their automobile to get back and forth to work. Just like the rest of America, 65% of them live from paycheck to paycheck.
MARTIN: Everett Kelley is the president of the American Federation of Government Employees. Mr. Kelley, thanks so much for joining us.
KELLEY: Thank you for having me. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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